If we are to promote the idea that a nude life is good, it would be well to present that idea as best we can. If a succession of sad, boring photos or text is presented as representative of the good nude life, some people may make up their mind that the idea itself is wrong and simply go elsewhere; we would have failed.
This is key to the success of this whole venture. Many men find their female partner will not join in, in my case, my wife will no longer join in even after happy nude holidays as a direct result of sad boring men intent on calling attention to their willy. She now holds the unshakable view that too many men go nude for tawdry motives, nothing to do with porn, just sad people who think that nudity is about genital exposure. It isn’t, it is not about genitals at all, to those who really believe in this life, seeing genitals is as irrelevant as seeing an elbow.
This is a difficult point to put across to some people, as genitals are irrelevant, why not show them? It is because they are irrelevant that constant re-focusing on genitals attempts to make them directly relevant to nudity. Compare two images, one of a man walking in the mountains, the other of a man sitting on a bed legs wide open, genitals towards the camera, centre shot. What do these photos show the viewer? To me, the fact that the walker’s genitals are clearly visible is utterly irrelevant, the second was probably taken with other less helpful motives.
Being a liberation who hates being told what to do (or to be dressed!) I do not support a Facebook style censorship, I prefer as far as possible to encourage posts like those of nude activity etc. that show that life without clothes is just fine and to ask the willy pointers to go elsewhere; they have their place, I just do not think it is here.
So this is a purely personal plea, if anyone is thinking of uploading a photo that focuses on genitals, how about using a different website, one aimed instead at repairing body guilt or that encourages exhibitionists. To me, this site is not about that.
Shane put it better than I have:- http://www.naktiv.net/blog/350/i-039-m-naked/
I'm naked, but I am a sexual being.
I think that's not bad, it's natural and therefore good.
If other people feel disturbed and impaired, so that's not really my fault.
It is a matter of education, the parental home, religion, social constraints … – I'm happy naked, always. But only for a short time wearing my head the naked body by the public, with the nose and the "Willy" advance;-)
Roberto
Well stated Doug, I think you have diplomatically spoken for all of us overall !!!
Frustration is usually a result of feeling like there is no resolution or control over a situation where there is a clear conflict of values.
I don't feel that is the situation here, or certainly doesn't need to be 🙂
I think if people believe the group idea I've put forward might have potential then let's try that out.
The topic has been discussed at length from different angles and various perspectives. I think there is clear disagreement. Let's take that and turn it into something positive. Acknowledge people have different values and expectations. Create a group for up and coming photographers who can post their efforts for comment and suggestion. Make sure unless you're a member of the group it won't appear on the home feed.
Let's take what we know and put it to good use. A body admiration group. Let's not shun people but find ways to accommodate and support them in a manner that doesn't tred on the toes of others 🙂
For what it's worth I think discussions should be able to take place without them getting heated and personal.
Yvonne has made a very important point. the Naktiv site was created as a reaction to Facebook. Where it probably faces a very prickly problem is trying to ride that middle ground between prurient like FB and absolute freedom like Tumblr.
One benefit of the latter is that anyone can post almost anything including graphic pornography. As a user you get to pick and choose what material you want to see. If you don't like content in one blog you move on. No foul no harm.
I think where certain things are concerned it's almost too challenging to maintain a stance in the middle when you're trying to appeal to an entire spectrum. There will be people who have come and gone from here because they felt the rules were far too restrictive and people too reserved. Others have left because they feel the site is too liberal and does not portray nudity in a good light.
Perhaps one answer is to put more focus on the group structure. Loosen the rules on groups and what might be permitted in them. Limit the home feed so if you're not a member of a group you don't see posts and photos from it on the home page. Group mods can then control what content is allowed in their group. New visitors aren't confronted by things they don't relate to, Likewise existing members. Implement guide lines that restrict what is made public on personal profiles and therefore appears on the home feed.
This is pretty much how True Nudists works and was an okay system. The problem with that site in my view was that most of the focus was on people posting nude images of themselves and hooking up with little to no discussion about nude issues.
That is a risk the Naktiv site runs. It is very possible that the primay focus becomes pictures of naked people and those more interested in discussion drift away. There's nothing wrong with that. The only downside for people who prefer discussion is that yet another site for nude advocacy goes the way of others. Again if that's what the majority of members prefer then obviously the site is fulfilling a need.
Certain advocates who see things differently to others will move on as has happened anyway.
Amen to that !!!!!!!
Exactly !!!!!!!
What I find impossible to understand is how several people have seen things in what I have written that are NOT there. Let me explain for the last time and without using big words:-
1. I would like to ENCOURAGE people NOT to post sad photos of themselves, legs akimbo and centred on their genitals. No rules, no moderator deletions, encouragement.
2. I would like to ENCOURAGE people NOT to post poor quality photos, out of focus, badly framed etc.. No one needs posh gear, all modern cameras and phones are fine.
Let me also outline what I have NOT said and do not think, yet have been accused of:
1. That all or most photos on the site are boring
2. That photos should be discouraged
3. That I am offended by genitals
4. That I think the Naktiv site is swamped by willy-photos
And to Yvonne Gibson in particular, you are indeed encouraging me to step away from the Naktiv site. Any more of this misrepresentation and distortion of what I have written and I’m off.
Yvonne, you're exactly right and after I posted our thoughts I was wishing I had said those words. If we start judging everyone's photos aren't we really resorting back to why many of us have such disdain for the textile world in the first place. I know for Kim that's what she loves about the nude lifestyle, she never feels judged while nude, whereas when clothed she often does.
Yvonne, we have to agree with you on this one. While we accept the positives of us all agreeing or disagreeing as being healthy it seems Howard is just too focused in his discussion about certain things. In our opinion we just don't really see anything positive coming from this point of view. Have there been a few photos that were questionable, sure there have. At the same time I have noticed those photos receive few likes or comments. Not everyone has great photo equipment or skills for that matter so what photos they take and post may be the best they can manage, so to them some of these while questionable may be fine to them. But to continually brow beat a subject here just seems over the top and misses what we would regard as constructive conversation in regard as to how many of us choose to share this wonderful lifestyle.
Hey, Yvonne, let's not push people away here. Discussion is good. It is all about freedom of choice, and Howard has just as much a right to voice his opinion, as you or I. Even if we agree to disagree.
Perhaps I have not expressed myself very clearly, this is not a photographic site, nor should it be.
What I am suggesting is that users be encouraged to stop and think before posting a photo, i.e. if it is of the class “look at my willy”, shows erections etc., if it is fuzzy, badly framed, has a bad colour cast or in some other way most people (not photo keenies) would class as “poor”, then don’t post it. That is all, nothing more, no hidden meanings, no implications, nothing.
The reason I do not have nude photos of me is simple, there is no-one here sufficiently interested in a nude life to take them. That is significant to this topic and my take on photos, the actions of a few people convinced my wife that a nude life is populated by too many sad people, even though I think she is wrong. So my motivation in the blog was reduce the number of sad people’s photos and hence better encourage a positive view of the nude life.
If people are cross that I think their “look at my willy” photos are sad, then tough, that is what I think and on a discussion site about nudity, very relevant.
It's a highly relevant discussion, and I think the heat only indicates how relevant the discussion is. Both for the Naktiv site, and for society in general.
You said:"this is not a photographic site, nor should it be." I don't agree with you. It can be as much a photographic site as a writing website . I'm a photographer and I express myself through photography. Especially that writing in English for a serious exchange is not easy as it's not my native language. Photographic language is universal!
I am not for one moment asking for professional photos, but with modern kit it is very easy to take sharp properly exposed photos and uploaded them, there is no longer any reason to accept fuzzy, dim images, if they come out like that, just take another one.
Ver pointe is vis, iff eye amm to lazee to too even tri two take evn a tiny effort to make betta fotos, no won will take dem serious-like, n e more than if I am too lazee to run a spel check or ignor me garmaa.
Whilst many (most?) are good, some of the photos are of the same photographic standard as my tortured language here and I include the “my willy” shots in those. The great majority of the writing on the Naktiv site is clear and well written, why not ask for photos to the same standard? My point is to encourage:- not rules, no mod deletions, just encouragement.
Why no photos of me? I shall have to find a photographer, selfies are so often……naff.
I agree with Howard 's view 100% and I completely understand where he's coming from and precisely the point he's making.
I did start another large elaborative post on the subject, but I think this post sums it up as well as I could have put it.
I hear what Yvonne and others are saying in terms of people not able to get out and camera angles. It's not actually that difficult to take reasonable interesting shots. Smart phones have timers. What's more it appears that at least some of the shots we've been talking about were taken with a tripod. That implies the photographer has a fair sense of what they're doing to have even purchased it in the first place. Technical considerations are a bit of a distraction from the key point.
I get that the objectives of the Naktiv site are broader than merely promoting Naturist/Nudist views and ideals. I get that once you've seen a few naked bodies you've pretty much seen the range of the human anatomy and viewing genitals at close quarters shouldn't be any different than observing any other aspect of the body. That holds true to a point.
At the risk of offending people like Richard I see this whole situation a little like"doggy" people. IE: People with dogs who assume everyone else likes dogs in the same way they do.
There are some dog owners who are mindful of their dogs. Keep them on a leash where it is required and CONTROL their dog so it doesn't bound up to others when people approach.
There are others who have bostrious, way out of control dogs that you have absolutely no idea what they're going to do bounding around with the owner out of sight. "Oh he won't hurt you," they exclaim with a friendly smile. Oh really?
Thanks for that gem of information now that your dog has terrified the life out of both my kids who are absolutely terrified of dogs because of bad experiences with them.
If its all the same to you I'd actually prefer not to have interact with your dog at all. I don't want to pat it, talk to it or have it bounding around me, sniffing me etc. Least of all do I want it jumping up on my kids. "He's just friendly. He won't hurt you. "
Thanks, but if it's all the same to you, I'd actually prefer your dog wasn't in MY personal space at all. I think it's that last point certain dog owners just don't get.
I think in terms of nudity there are parallels between the dog situation and less than flattering photos of naked people. If its all the same to you, I'd actually prefer not to see your penis right up in my face. I don't personally feel those photos encourage nudity at all. If anything they put people off.
I'm not enamored by glamor shots of women either. In the broader post I started, I wrote that I think part of the reason women are deterred by public nudity is because of the ongoing objectification of their bodies. They either see those types of images and feel intimidated because they don't feel that they live up to the ideal being portrayed. Alternatively people have their beliefs reinforced that nudism is little more than exhibitionism and voyeurism.
No doubt this subject will continue to crop up because the Naktiv site is trying to cater to a very broad spectrum. People will get annoyed and leave as we've seen. I think that's pretty inevitable. Meanwhile is worth having the conversation.
There is very little risk of offending me, Shane 🙂
I think that as the site is, as you say, catering to a wide spectrum, and there are people who leave when they see something they don't like, the best solution would be for people to use their privacy settings to ensure their material can be seen by friends only.
crap,rubbish,garbage……
I dont think that we all look at the "willy" (penis,for those that do not know what a willy is)I certainly do not look directly at a womans "pussy" if she uploads a photo….I look at the whole picture.
Yes I agree with you about the naff shots but that is why we have moderators
Great blog subject, Howard. I've taken the liberty of adding a link to it, from the related and topical http://www.naktiv.net/photo-guidelines/ as well.
I tend to agree with your basic premise, Howard Anderson However, I don't think the Naktiv site is swamped by willy-photos, even if we do get our share. There is a huge range of interesting material on here now, and I think that speaks volumes for the core integrity of the people involved in naked activities whom have chosen to participate, and to continue to participate, here.
Just because we do see some images which are a bit on the sad side, doesn't mean, I think, we should be quite so negatively inclined about the entire process. I think there is some outstanding work here: Melvin's animalistic and down-to-earth series from the US. JMF's quite incredible naked hiking shots from France. Al's professional shots, both current and past. Anthony's sensitive and provocative artwork. Karla and Stuart's graphic mountain shots from the UK. etc. etc.
The good stuff stands heads and shoulders above the tardier material today, but we should remember: "from little acorns to great oaks grow!"
Diversity in life is wonderful, meeting so many different views, personalities and outlooks is stimulating. Every time one feels a sense of understanding of the world, along comes another view to make one think. Excellent. People who live a nude life are also very varied. Excellent. The view that is perhaps not so welcome is the willy obsessed man who thinks we all want a photo of it.